[2.0] Torpedoes - are they worth it?

[Presidente]

Faster torpedoes have a much better chance of causing a crit, from my 2.0 games so far I have seen piercing torpedoes bounce off cc most of the time, while every time ive seen/faced, coa/jap faster torpedo's they produce much more damage, making a large ship loose its escorts supporting cc is a big thing, while rockets just bounced of the majesty with three escorts.

 

Im not saying piercing isn't good, because it is, just fast in my experience of 2.0 games so far is better:)

[Fire@Will]

Most of the time you should be breaking DR, right? I'm not sure faster torps (in the numbers in an EoBS fleet) are the reason...by the time we're using our torps we've had a few rounds of shooting to whittle down CC anyway, whilst KoB torps have longer range, and will be targetting less damaged ships first.

[irob41]

I've seen the effectiveness of Faster Torpedoes against my forces. Late game they tore up my gunships and bypassed my dreadnought's escorts.

 

Piercing can be effective as well. There is a slight more randomness depending on what effect your role, but the rewards can be much greater. Removing tertiary weapons on a Blazing Sun vessel severely hamstrings that ship. And it does better to get an effect on a high CR ship when you only beat DR after CC rolls.

 

Which one is better? I think they're fairly balanced. More consistency on faster but more reward on Piercing.

[Fuzzi99]

With most of our Torps being piercing we really only need to reach DR (after CC/Shields) then we get to roll on the crit table (re-rolling a 2 or 12) so it's not too bad.

 

Although as I found out today we are cock-blocked by ALL intervening models in between the torps and the target

[Fire@Will]

With strategic forces (in particular flanking) I think there's more to this game than just lining up a screen of smalls in front of your big battleship. If KoB can encircle their opponent, I think the right activation order should unlock most fleets - particularly if there are some handy small-killers in a fleet - even small wings of SAS can play that role!

 

With Guardian generators KoB are the perfect fleet to pull off the screening smalls tactics - most other fleets have smalls that can be picked off with less trouble. In general, I think the factions in DW are now falling into a rock-paper-scissors format (instead of high and lower tiers). For instance, EoBS vs KoB can be tricky for the KoB with so many node generators available, whereas the RoF have access to nullification generators, high AA and cloud generators to stymie that approach! Which, in my view, is the sign of some well thought-out design and careful balancing. Well done Sparta and the playtesters!

[Fire@Will]

With most of our Torps being piercing we really only need to reach DR (after CC/Shields) then we get to roll on the crit table (re-rolling a 2 or 12) so it's not too bad.

 

And, of course, with small volleys of torpedos you can now place critical effects on smalls! Imagine the day that navigation lock on an Uwatsu causes a pile-up...

 

 

"Sir, um, we can't turn around"

 

"What the...how the hell did that happen?!"

 

"Don't know Sir, we've normally sunk by now!"

[Presidente]

That's not very inspiring:P

[BlindGunn]

Speaking as primarily a Prussian and Russian player, my normal KoB opponent hasn't been having any complaints regarding his torpedoes (other than the standard "Dang! No RB1!", of course).  I have had lots.  Most not printable in a family-friendly forum such as this...

 

And yes, I've faced Fast torps too.  (He's been playing a combines EotBS & Antarcticans as well).

 

I dislike Fast torps.  They get hits but seldom crits. ESPECIALLY against Russians.

 

I HATE Piercing torps!  Trying to repair all the _____ they cause is annoying and if you roll dice like I do, it'll take 2-3 turns to repair it all.  And more damage shows up each turn!

 

I think the key here is target selection, expectation and planned purpose.

 

Take your typical Tribal squadron.  If you''re after a "Big Boy", you're going to combine to get through the CC fire.  But if you get a DR, you're already affecting the enemy as if you got a crit.  If you're after a squadron of Mediums or smalls, shoot one ship at separate targets (preferably in the same squadron).  The squadron cannot Link their CC - each ship has to defend itself first.  Three chances to damage something & you're more likely to get a Crit Effect on at least 1 of the squadron.

 

I see Piercing Torpedoes as a "soften them up" weapon with good to great range.  They probably shouldn't be used to do "the kill shot" until later in the game - after you've annoyed your opponent to death!  A Death of a thousand cuts!  Fast Torpedoes are a "Kill Shot" weapon - they don't do anything significant unless they get Crits which is harder.

 

Sorry, I need to go report to the Emperor now to answer the accusations of treason now.  Hope I'll be back...

[Poseidal]

Remember Tribals don't get piercing; have to go for Agincourts (or Vanguard) to get it.

 

Hmm. Actually, if Tribals actually had piercing, it would explain their cost next to Agincourts - the latter has inbuilt Stoic, +1 CR, +1 AA, Piercing and arguably the turret is better than the fixed port/starboard torpedoes for 10 points more per model.

[BlindGunn]

Remember Tribals don't get piercing; have to go for Agincourts (or Vanguard) to get it.

 

Hmm. Actually, if Tribals actually had piercing, it would explain their cost next to Agincourts - the latter has inbuilt Stoic, +1 CR, +1 AA, Piercing and arguably the turret is better than the fixed port/starboard torpedoes for 10 points more per model.

 

Whoops!

 

See what happens when a foreigner tries to help out!  

 

Or maybe that's part of my plan...       

[Fuzzi99]

Remember Tribals don't get piercing; have to go for Agincourts (or Vanguard) to get it.

 

Hmm. Actually, if Tribals actually had piercing, it would explain their cost next to Agincourts - the latter has inbuilt Stoic, +1 CR, +1 AA, Piercing and arguably the turret is better than the fixed port/starboard torpedoes for 10 points more per model.

and the turret can fire in RB1, and the generator can't be shot

[Presidente]

The tribals again fail in every respect. It wasn't worth 60, it certainly aint worth 80.  

[ImperialGlory]

If you look a the Tribal and compare it to the Georgetown Mk.3, they are very similarly performing ships. Why the Georgetown is 75 pts and the Tribal is 80 is a mystery to me.

[Thamoz]

See... I think it would be worth 80...

It is the same cost as the CoA Cleomedes and 10 or 5 points more than the FSA Georgetown.

Lets see how they compare in full squads;

Fully linked AD;

Tribal

Turrets; 18/14/10/6              Fore torps;  0/14/12/10             P/S torps 0/12/10/8

after 4 damage;

Turrets; 14/10/6/2               All torps unchanged.

 

Cleomedes

Turrets; 18/14/10/6             Fore torps; 10/10/10/10     P/S Broadside 12/10/8/6

e-turret; 10/10/10/10 (just for completeness)

after 4 damage;

Turrets; 10/6/2/2                Torps unchanged                P/S broadside 4/2/2/2

e-turret; 6/6/6/6

 

Georgetown

Turrets; 20/16/12/8            Fore/aft volley guns; 12/8/0/0           Rockets; 8/10/12/0

after 4 damage;

Turrets; 12/8/4/2                Fore/aft volley Guns; 8/4                  Rockets unchanged

 

In terms of offensive potential, the Tribal is just as good as the Cleomedes until RB1. The Georgetown has stronger turret firepower, but the Tribal has more weapon systems.

Now look at the cruisers on their last legs. The Cleomedes squadron is crippled, the Georgetown squadron is in slightly better shape but the Tribal squadron is still kicking out decent levels of AD.

 

Now lets look at defences.

Tribal

Shield (2) (external) AA 3 CC3

 

Cleomedes

Shield (2) (internal) with inventive scientists. AA 3 CC 2

Ability to wavelurk, at the cost of halving firepower. May use a swift maneuver to get to wavelurk status on a 5+

 

Georgetown

Optional shield (2) (external) at the cost of the rocket AD AA 4 CC 3. +1 DR.

 

In terms of survivability, the Cleomedes is ahead in my opinion. The Georgetown, due to the FSA +1 DR edges ahead of the Tribal and has a better AA value, but only by 1.

 

And lastly, lets look at the boarding abilities.

Tribal

AP 15, regular (option for Stoic)

 

Cleomedes

AP 12, Elite

 

Georgetown

AP 15, regular (option for stoic) and Sharpshooter

 

In terms of aggresive boarding, they are probably about equal with the Georgetown slightly ahead. In terms of repelling boarders, the option for stoic pushes both Georgetown and Tribal above the Cleomedes.

 

So the question it seems is, why is the Tribal 10 or 5 pts more than the Georgetown? I suspect the answer is because the Tribal can have both shields and tertiary weapons, redoubtable turrets and aside from that is pretty much the same. Is redoubtable and an extra boatload of torps enough for a 10 pt increase? I think so

Is the Tribal worth 80 points? In comparison to other cruisers, I think it certainly is.

 

The bigger question though? Is the Tribal worth taking when for a few more points you can take an Agincourt?... that one is a little trickier and will almost always (I suspect) come down to if you need/want those points elsewhere.

[Sebenko]

Please note that as a CoA vessel, the Cleomedes remains the best looking right up until it hits 0HP. This is the most important statistic for a model, and makes the Cleomedes a bargain!

[Thamoz]

Well obviously Sebenko, but I didn't want to go disheartening the poor old KoB chaps

[Justice and Rule]

Edit: Eh, just repeating what Thamoz went into much more detail.

[Presidente]

Im not that old:(

[Poseidal]

The Georgetown can get 21/14 dice against massive/large models with the volley guns if they're all in the right place (more or less as easy as doing the same for Tribal with p/s torpedoes), and can re-roll a dice thanks to sustained fire on the main turret.

 

Fixed torps (with no fast torps or piercing) is really annoying. Pretty much you'll only ever get one in arc (and try and get more with an entire squad) means that the torp turret is pretty much always more useful (even without piercing).

[ImperialGlory]

The Georgetown can get 21/14 dice against massive/large models with the volley guns if they're all in the right place (more or less as easy as doing the same for Tribal with p/s torpedoes), and can re-roll a dice thanks to sustained fire on the main turret.

 

Fixed torps (with no fast torps or piercing) is really annoying. Pretty much you'll only ever get one in arc (and try and get more with an entire squad) means that the torp turret is pretty much always more useful (even without piercing).

 

Exactly my thought. Yes, the Tribal has redoubtable and more tertiaries than Georgetown Mk.3, but the Georgetown has better gunnery and defences to begin with, and volley guns don't have poor firing arcs or get depleted by CC like torpedoes. I'm having a hard time seeing the Tribal as a clearly superior vessel to Georgetown Mk.3, particularly when I have little reason to take one over Agincourt.

[Thamoz]

As I said, the whole agincourt/tribal thing is not what I am on about. I agree that, assuming you don't absolutely need the points elsewhere, agincourts are the better choice.. The Cruiser conundrum though is fairly straightforward. I do not say the Tribal is superior to the Georgetown, I am saying it is at least as good as. In my opinion it is better, but that is just my opinion. Both provide solid medium options to their respective fleets. Are they both worth their respective points? Yes.

As for volley guns comparing to the torps, they provide different things and each play to the national feel. They are at least comparable, possibly even you could say the torps are stronger due to a reasonable strength at rb 4 and 3 where the volley guns are powerless.

I don't quite see how the Georgetown can link to such high volley gun numbers though, since the fore and aft arcs do not overlap, therefore at best you would get a 17AD attack at RB1 against a sufficiently large ship. Am I missing something?

[Fire@Will]

I think, theoretically, if you get the Georgetown parallel parked alongside you could claim that the fore and aft volley guns clip across a large model. However, that puts both guns at 1/2 AD, as you would only catch part of a model in each gun's arc.

[Poseidal]

I did make a mistake, one of the guns will be partially blocked (from not being able to arc 50% of the ship) so 17 is the max you can get.

 

Although there's the different 'feel' - the Tribal's fixed arcs mean you'll never get to fire more than one Torpedo attack (the Volley guns are shorter ranged, but more flexible), the gun is inferior and has worse DR and AA while being more expensive. I could see it priced the same 75, ore even at 70 along with the other variants, but 80 is sort of bizarre, even when ignoring the elephant (Agincourt) in the room. Redoubtable on the main turret must be really expensive, but the Tribal can also be damaged more easily in the first place, and won't be sticking around as long as a Battleship when it is.

[The Bastard]

The Georgetowns volley guns are 90 degree arcs. They are never going to be able to link unless they are next to a dreadnought/

 

The Tribal is pretty goo for its points since its fine at all RB except 1 and does damage at all HP's except 0. Thats a pretty great strength to have in a cruiser. Georgetowns hate that its easy to damage them (since they want rockets generally) and that once they take damage the only redoubtable weapons they have are the bad volley guns. 

 

Tribals are fine, they just suffer from Internal Balance Issues. 

[sleeping_squirrel]

Tribals are fine, they just suffer from Internal Balance Issues.

As I understand, it is still time to change things until stats are published in the alliance book :-) What bothers me is that Tribal and Agincourt have same role and Agincourt is much better for only 10 points. So, two solutions: give them different role or tweak stats/cost here or there. Any solutions?

 

I am not going into this, as I have to play more games before sugesting something.