[2.0] Torpedoes - are they worth it?

[Nazduruk_Bugzappa]

The Ruler does have piercing torpedoes.

I'm playing tomorrow against the EoTBS so I'll let you know we fair against them. It's a little OT but escorts lost the ability to combine with their parent model right? Couldn't find it in the rulebook that they can still combine.

They only provide linked fire now. On the upside, if the escorts have ordnance weapons, they get to link those with their parent vessel now

[irob41]

Thank you for the confirmation Nazduruk. I'm pretty excited for my first go with the new rules and want to do it as correctly as possible.

[rufus]

Two frigates in front of the Borodino and that stops or causes partially blocked LOS and that's 1/2 AD. Now the Lios MTB's and FSA and Aussie subs are very cheap LOS blockers for torpedos. Park a frigate squadron in front of our DN and its almost immune to torpedos.

 

Imho all of those are just perfect examples of tactical gameplay. They require different activations (squadrons) to move in a organized manner and they have the downside of limiting the movement of the screened BB/DN. No one forces you to wait with activating your 3 Tribals + Dominion until after the enemy BB is screened. Or to shoot that partially blocked target. One might as well use some Orions/Doncasters/Attacker (or anyt other small hunter) and just blow those Frigates out of the water before activating the Capital hard hitters with their torps.

 

Rockets are by far the better weapon.

 

I beg to differ. Rockets are by far the more versatile weapon system and in many ways a bit easier to use to best effect (thanks to better firing arcs). But torpedoes counter this by having unique abilities and with strong MARs like "Piercing" or "Faster torpedoes" which allow them to be very effective.

 

... and I say that as a KoB, LoIS player.

[Bunnahabhain]

Torpedoes very often have fixed channel, and I  think from reading these comments, many people have  not looked at the line of sight section carefully enough.

A gap the width of the fixed channel is all you need for the target to be In the Open. 

 

Yes it is possible to entirely screen a model, but it isn't easy, and frankly, I'll normally  be very glad if an opponent does so. Most of the time, that screening would be their frigates or corvettes deliberately not hiding behind the heavier units. I'll happily take not getting a probable crit on a battleship, and instead sinking  a couple of corvettes or frigates, as I've now rendered that whole squadron of smalls fairly harmless.

 

 

As a tactic of opportunity,  there is nothing wrong with torp screening- if those frigates are going to be out in the open making an attack run on something anyway, you might as well get some extra utility out of them.

As something to base your battle plan around, it's a non-starter to my mind

 

 

The final point is field orders.  Running a screen of disposable smalls  might be a great way to protect your commodore- or it might be playing right into your opponents all smalls order.Try it a few times, and your opponents will probably start picking all smalls given the choice....

 

To sum it up, there are lots of tactical choices there.

 

 

James

[Redmick]

I don't think that with the general buff to KoB gunnery through Redoubtable, the slight decrease in the effectiveness of torpedoes is a major issue. I agree that rockets are more versatile - but AA is generally higher, and with shield gens on many larger KoB models it mitigates the threat posed to a large degree.

I cannot remember intervening / screening vessels being a massive issue in games. You would be right to activate your own small vessels or cruisers / non Capital vessels to blow this screen up if possible. Or, if not, use a BB's side torps on the screen, followed by gunnery on the vessel behind. It makes sense to me that torpedoes would gust through the water at the target but be forced to hit something in the way. Covering your own ship with smaller vessels means that you cannot use your torps, but that is a fair trade off if it's forcing your opponent to roll half AD.

I think if we are trying to have our cake and eat it with all the other improvements in mind, by saying torpedoes could slide under intervening vessels, then other nations could start arguing that rockets should have homing devices on to allow them to round intervening terrain. Not necessary in my book. Just alter your tactics.

[Nazduruk_Bugzappa]

Besides, with the exception of drone torpedoes (I wonder who has those?) most torpedoes lock on to either heat signatures or metal hulls, so it would make sense that intervening models "confuse" the torpedoes and block lines of fire (even if they're only frigates)

[ImperialGlory]

The Ruler does have piercing torpedoes.

 

Hmmm, yes thank you. Not sure how I missed that the first time around....

[sleeping_squirrel]

Actually, I like that torpedoes are blocked by objects, it did not make sense in 1.1. Looking forward to play again and try new things.

[Bejebas]

Wait until the allies are out and then we can continue this discussion without risk of the nda.

[Ungard]

 

drone torpedoes (I wonder who has those?)

Well, ther is only one fleet who should have access to something like that.

 

The Kingdom of Denmark.

[Poseidal]

Can you get more AA from SAS too?

[Fire@Will]

As CAP, I think they only apply to Boarding. But then I could be missing something...

[Bulwark]

.

Park a frigate squadron in front of our DN and its almost immune to torpedos.

 

DW is a game about maneuvering as much as it is about anything else. Yes, that DN is completely blocked by frigates if you try to torp it...but what happens when it comes time to move? Either the dread is activated first and collides with its own frigates, of the frigates move first, leaving the DN open for your attacks. Granted, the other player could use 2 squads of frigates; one to block LOS from where it is, and another to block LOS from where it will be. However, you have not only spent over 200 points spent defending a 300 point unit, but you're also telegraphing your movements as well as keeping 2 squads out of their ideal range (in most cases).

Even using a single squad of frigates, I would love it if my opponent decided it was a good investment to take a 120 point upgrade to block half of my torpedo attacks on a single model.

[Bulwark]

As CAP, I think they only apply to Boarding. But then I could be missing something...

I believe they use to work against other TFTs, but that's last edition talking

[McKinstry]

Page 181 of the Commodore Edition - Last Bullet under Universal Rules for CP - "If a Parent Model is the target of an attack by Models occupying the Aerial Height Band, a CP may Link with its Parent Model when making an Aggressive Counter Attack."

[Fire@Will]

Yeah - I just noticed that everyone gets Well Trained as standard now!

[irob41]

Just had my first game with V2.0. It was 1000pts versus EotBS. I had a crushing lost but it was very enjoyable game. Aside from a bad deployment decision on my part (which probably cost me the game) the fleet works well. I did not have a hard time lining up my fixed channels to deliver torpedo attacks. I wasn't able to maximize use of our piercing torpedoes due to target selection and priority but the tribals performed admirably.

[Grey Mage]

DW is a game about maneuvering as much as it is about anything else. Yes, that DN is completely blocked by frigates if you try to torp it...but what happens when it comes time to move? Either the dread is activated first and collides with its own frigates, of the frigates move first, leaving the DN open for your attacks. Granted, the other player could use 2 squads of frigates; one to block LOS from where it is, and another to block LOS from where it will be. However, you have not only spent over 200 points spent defending a 300 point unit, but you're also telegraphing your movements as well as keeping 2 squads out of their ideal range (in most cases).

Even using a single squad of frigates, I would love it if my opponent decided it was a good investment to take a 120 point upgrade to block half of my torpedo attacks on a single model.

If only their were cheap, somewhat disposable small units we could use to escort them, who were good at screening their parent models from such things, and maybe gave other sundry benefits, perhaps using the attachment rules?... we could call them.... escorts! Yeah, escorts. Because they escort other ships. I like it.

I mean seriously... why waste a 120pt unit, when the battleship or dreadnaught can have a 50pt investment whose only job is to protect the big ship from exactly that kind of attack? It even makes sense, in game- theres a large torpedo volley being sent this way, we know because our sonar, esp, or metal detectors said so... order the escort to go use some CCs against it, quick.... *escort goes boom* Its cinematic, it works when it needs to, and we have the option to take them out with gunnery first if we need to. I dont think its  a bad tactic, its just not fool proof.

[Spike668]

For all the players who are complaining about this- the ASW screen of small ships is a key part of real naval warfare, so why should this not be represented in this naval warfare game!

 

Spike

[Presidente]

Because its dws, not real navel warfare!

[Fire@Will]

Escorts will not make it through the first round of fire, tho. Seems like a one-use trick. Also, as an EoBS player whose ships are quite narrow I have no problems finding gaps. How to Fore Torps on KoB compare?

[Presidente]

Our escorts hide behind the big ships.... its almost impossible to get line of sight on them. While piercing is nice, fast torpedoes are better.

[Fire@Will]

I'm not so sure - I'd prefer to be rolling criticals all the time!

[Thamoz]

It depends on the target. Faster torps is probably better when aimed at smalls or large medium squadrons.

Against battlecruisers or large/massive ships I would take piercing over faster every time.

[irob41]

Escorts will not make it through the first round of fire, tho. Seems like a one-use trick. Also, as an EoBS player whose ships are quite narrow I have no problems finding gaps. How to Fore Torps on KoB compare?

 

Well, our ships are a bit wider so it's easier to get blocked I suppose.

 

Versus the Blazing suns I think you could protect your escorts for the first 2 rounds with your bigs to fend off the rocket attacks. After that, you need them to move forward and be the sacrificial lamb against the faster torpedoes. If the blazing suns are in torp range, then their rocket attacks are down.