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[2.0] Torpedoes - are they worth it?

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I played my first 2.0 against Russians yesterday and it ended draw only because we had to finish earlier. At the beginning of the 3rd turn I was seriously beaten barely scratching enemy ships. Terrain was placed according to the book, so I had to manage with 4 massive islands, 3 large and one sandbar on 6x4 foot table. I placed only one large island and sandbar and was in serious disadvantage right from the start. Combination of the battlefield, jam generators and iceberg generators left me wondering, again, if torpedoes are priced accordingly. I did know I would be facing Russians and so had built quite turret heavy fleet but still I had a lot of torpedoes which I paid for and in the end torpedoes were dead weight. Weaker targets were shielded by icebergs and terrain, rest of the fleet was very safe as any torpedo attack had to pass jammers, then CC and then match high ablative DR. These were my thoughts during the game:

 

Torpedoes

Pros:

+ good against diving models

+ are a tertiary weapon

 

Cons:

- there are only a few of diving models at the moment, max. 10?, and as models are very situational and rarely seen on a sea as they are not as good hitting on 5+ or more.

- torpedoes, even tertiary, lack behind in hitting naval surface models as lot of our turrets are redoubtable so damage is not such a big issue

- torpedoes can be countered by CC, turrets cant

- torpedoes cant target flying and armored models, so our operational freedom is significantly limited

- any other weapon, even rockets countered by AA, will be able to deal with an airfield placed on an island; torpedoes not

- torpedoes are blocked by anything floating or by terrain, with some minor exceptions when fired from underwater

 

We are huge on torpedoes but I feel that it is safer to build a fleet around versatile turrets as torpedoes are highly situational.

 

Any thoughts?

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Pro,

Torpedoes downgrade shields too heavy

Sub hunter

Situational pro (vanguard)

Piercing munitions

Situational (KoB)

You have target painters to keep it at 4+

Edit - terrain setup, you split the board into quatrants then roll a 5+ To place a marker to a max of 2 to a quadrant. (each marker becomes a piece of terrain) So you got 8 out of a max of 12.... By the same token you could end up with none so have the min 2 pieces

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Hm, Torpedoes are definitely the worst of the Tertiary weapons at the moment, that's true.

 

But the British have piercing torps which somewhat remedies the situation. You don't need to hit the CR of the Russian ships to cause a bit of havoc. And against Russian, most of the Crit results are actually useful - half MV, AD, shredded defenses, generators offline, raging fires - apart from Chaos and Disarray there is nothing completely useless against Russians. Also, their AA and CC is pitiful most of the times.

 

In my game a few days ago I had hit the DR of a gunship and rolled genereator offline - later a squadron of Agincourts used their torps turrets to blow the gunship up - keep in mind that the jammer only works for the targeted model.

 

Anyway, my Russian opponent definitely wished for Torps since I fielded a Vengeance, 3 Vanguards and 5 Valiants and he had a brutally hard time damaging them since everything he had fired with half AD. He had to uses Torpsbomber SAS to get rid of the Valiants, the Vengeance was sunk after staying surfaced a brutal ramming action and the Vanguards survived till the end with only two HP lost. So, against Subs you definitely need torps or bombs to effectively damage them.

 

Another thing speaking for British torps are the target painters. While they only have 16" now, we have more options to get panters in the fleet and thus have way more torps hitting on 3+. I kept the Vanguard submerged most of the game but since my Majesty had a painter, 2 Dominions and the Vanguard three more, I managed to hit on 4+ most of the times while being submerged.

 

(On a side note: Vanguards are really beautiful with their agressive crew - I prized the Russian Dreadnought after he had suffered 3 HP loss in a battle with the Majesty.)

 

I think British Torps are fine but they definitely need special rules to be on par with rockets or tesla now. As far as I know most of the torps have a munitions type or MAR, though, so I might balance out.

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8 pieces of terrain on a 6 x4 is  very crowded. With average dice, you'd expect 4 pieces. If you do roll up such an unusual set up, you can always use just talk to you opponent, and  put down a more balanced terrain set up. The British  do prefer  more open boards,    so it sounds like you were scuppered by the terrain

 

The end of terrain set up does encourage you to , if you wish, ignore the rolling for terrain, and  simply put down a board you both like!

In several testing games we've done just that- where we've rolled very odd terrain set ups, reducing or increasing the number of terrain pieces rolled to somewhere near average.

 

James

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If you do roll up such an unusual set up, you can always use just talk to you opponent, and  put down a more balanced terrain set up.

 

 

Yes, we both agreed on that, but i was our first game so we wanted to try it and go by the book :-)

 

Pro,

Torpedoes downgrade shields too heavy

Sub hunter

In average game shields are not such a big issue, blue or red, in the end it doesnt matter so much.

Sub hunter - I am aware of that but at the moment only Kob can field reliable under water force.

 

Situational pro (vanguard)

Piercing munitions

Yes, thats true! However, still hitting on 5+ because ...

 

Situational (KoB)

You have target painters to keep it at 4+

... it is too risky to be at RB2 to use a target painter, as I still feel that RB3 is the place where Kob should stay most of the time. Especialy against Russians :-)

 

Still looking forward to try 2.0 more, I just feel, that altought in some cases torpedoes migt be good, in average game situation is better to have a turret :)

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I agree 100% with hamster, the worst Tertiary weapon. Restricted by terrain and ships, more than any other weapon, restricted by fixed arc. Most of the time I just see torpedoes bounce off cc or then shields , even with the blue dice. However , do agree with those restrictions, they should be fixed arc. What could be done to improve them? I don't really know, the best example is fast torpedo's, because escorts and such cant help out.

 

The best 'T' weapon is now ofc the forward teslas on PE ships, looking forward to trying my Prussians out that's for sure^^.

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In general, CC is slightly lower than AA. In theory, Torpedoes will have more numbers and/or piercing and can fire more, but the fixed arc on most is kind of limited, and you can rarely or never practically fire both starboard and port at the same time.

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While you could argue that Torps are the worst of the Tertiary weapons I don't think its much of an argument.

 

The things that I like about torps are generally that they are like guns but shields are less effective, they don't ever lose dice and most defences are CC, which are generally lower on ships when compared to AA. 

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Hold on, I never meant to say that Torps are bad - I just think that Rockets and Teslas are better since they are less situational. They have it easier to get line of sight, rockets are often 360° and Tesla has powerful synergies with the fleet they belong to.

 

Still, as far as I know at the moment, Torps are always combined with special munitions or MARs bringing them on par with aforementioned weapons.

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Don't mess with my torpedoes... while I would not build a force around torpedoes only they sure provide the bang for your buck. Personally I think Torps are pretty much fine as they are. We had a lot of good torpedo fun sniping smalls at long range or piercing/critting cruisers or even larges that had previously been battered. And I had good results using SAS Torpedobombers for different factions.

 

Torps vs. RC ships with active ablative armour and some Jammers + lots of terrain in a first game of 2.0 seem a tough battle. It might take some time to adjust to the new Ablative, Jammers and Torpedo rules, but I bet that most people will come back to like their torps after a few games...

 

R

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Well no one is saying they are a bad weapon system, just the worst 'T' weapon system, or at least the least easiest to use. I've seen the japz and the coa do better with faster torpedoes, but that's something I wouldn't want for kob, I've always thought of their torpedoes to be of the slower, heavier variety.  

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- there are only a few of diving models at the moment, max. 10?, and as models are very situational and rarely seen on a sea as they are not as good hitting on 5+ or more.

 

Ika, Arronax, Sturmbringer was very popular in 1.1, Vengeance not so popular, but common choice, and they all was very annoying and fearsome enemies. I think it will remain in 2.0 so torpedoes will have a job.

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I think the real kick in the teeth for Torps in 2.0 is always being blocked by intervening models for LoS.

The rest of their limitations I happily accept for Piercing, always-full-value torps. However, having blocked LoS from a Majesty because there's a Crocodile or Moustique in the way rubs me the wrong way...

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An easy fix would b that they are allowed to pass under ships that are smaller than the firer, so the majesty's torpedoes would be stopped by massive models and so on.

 

 

:lol:

 

But in seriousness, that's a "fix" for something that's not broken. Torpedoes being able "indirect fire" just makes things more confusing (Why would a bigger ship's torpedoes be able to go deeper?), but it makes torpedoes that much more generic. As they are, they feel unique and different while not busting the system. They are focused solely on Naval and have more LoS restrictions than other weapons, but torpedoes (compared to rockets) typically have much stronger AD while facing much lower CC (compared to AA). Along with that Torpedoes typically carry stronger MARs like Piercing, Incendiary, and Fast Torpedoes, which makes them very effective even on a single hit.

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But in seriousness, that's a "fix" for something that's not broken. Torpedoes being able "indirect fire" just makes things more confusing (Why would a bigger ship's torpedoes be able to go deeper?), but it makes torpedoes that much more generic. As they are, they feel unique and different while not busting the system. They are focused solely on Naval and have more LoS restrictions than other weapons, but torpedoes (compared to rockets) typically have much stronger AD while facing much lower CC (compared to AA). Along with that Torpedoes typically carry stronger MARs like Piercing, Incendiary, and Fast Torpedoes, which makes them very effective even on a single hit.

 

Here's a better question- why, given the super-science available in DW, should torps (and indeed rockets) be affected by intervening models at all? A mechanism which regulates a torpedo to run at a certain depth for the first part of its course and then rise for the second part is hardly beyond the realms of belief.

Torps also didn't need 'fixing' from 1.1 when they obeyed normal LoS restrictions. Given the KoB focus on torps & Guardian Generators, I see a lot of tactical options going seeing as keeping even smalls under the Guardian can get in the way of one of our main weapon systems.

 

Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I haven't had any games with 2.0 yet (and unfortunately won't have the chance for a while). This may be a non-issue, but it doesn't seem that way at the moment.

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It seems likely that torpedoes were made to be blocked by all surface models simply because someone thought it made more sense, not because it fixed any perceived game problem. Considering how limited torpedoes already are by their firing arcs, I don't know that it was really a sound decision, but like Resa, I've yet to run a 2.0 game.

 

Then again, it's quite possible that the variety of boosts to torpedo performance make the serious limitations torpedoes have been saddled with all worth it. Every model appears to have gotten an Torpedo AD boost, and the only Medium or Larger Britannian models without piercing torpedoes are the RulerDominion, and Tribal, and the Dominion packs a 16" Target Painter instead.  A pair of Tribals with an attached Dominion will score an average of 13 hits with their fore torpedoes in RB2 against a painted target - even a Borodino with a Torpedo Jammer rolling average odds will only be able to prevent 5 of those hits, still taking damage. Most unescorted BBs would be taking a crit.

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Every model appears to have gotten an Torpedo AD boost, and the only Medium or Larger Britannian models without piercing torpedoes are the Ruler

 

The Ruler does have piercing torpedoes.

 

I'm playing tomorrow against the EoTBS so I'll let you know we fair against them. It's a little OT but escorts lost the ability to combine with their parent model right? Couldn't find it in the rulebook that they can still combine.

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Two frigates in front of the Borodino and that stops or causes partially blocked LOS and that's 1/2 AD.

 

Now the Lios MTB's and FSA and Aussie subs are very cheap LOS blockers for torpedos.

Park a frigate squadron in front of our DN and its almost immune to torpedos.

 

Rockets are by far the better weapon.

360 vs fixed channel (OK there are some Torp turrets)

normal los rules vs easily blocked

useable against air vs useless against air

restricted against diving vs effective against diving

useable against skimmers on terrain vs useless

 

late game when (T) weapons become effective, both AA and CC are generally reduced to 1.

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