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useheadbutt

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  1. That actually is a pretty good point though in terms of whether it is a move, combat, or misc action and whether is counts as a special action or not. Because it is not specified I would treat it's action type as "undefined" like tactical brilliance so it doesn't increase the cost of later actions. Because it doesn't say anything about being a special action I would rule that it doesn't preclude you from doing other special actions on your turn. However these are just my personal rulings rather than a solid answer.
  2. .....you have made me a very very happy man. I've noticed a couple other similar issues and/or typos with some stat cards here and there but I am getting married next week so I don't have time to compile them. After all the craziness settles down I'll post a list of minor issues.
  3. I was looking at stat cards today and I noticed the heavy borer vehicle now has a melee weapon (and a very good one at that). The problem is that it has a Fight score of "-" which means it can't make fight actions. Why give it a -4 prc weapon and then rule that it isn't able to use it? That just seems cruel.
  4. I don't believe there is an official order of operations on this but I have always seen it played as one status being applied at a time with the defending unit's owner making the call as to which triggered. So fail 1 grit check, owner picks if stunned or disordered. Fail 2nd grit check, apply other status. Fail 3rd grit check and be wounded and removed from the field (unless it is a construct in which case you get to use carpathogen). With tough and mettle it can be hard to remove them from the field.
  5. So I think you want overall advice right? Ok first check out the rules here: http://www.wildwestexodus.com/content/66-rules You can download the pdf for free and the online version will always be up to date with the latest rules The other resource you need is the character cards, Posse cards, and armory located here: http://www.wildwestexodus.com/content/73-outlaws-stat-cards The posse list is the red link at the top right that says "download posses & armory" Lastly join "The Dark Council" facebook group which can help you locate local people to play with. I know my city has a separate facebook group dedicated solely to local players but the dark council one is a good place for advice or to be linked to a local gaming group in your area. In this game your army is divided into something called "Posses". Each posse has a single boss character which then determines who/what can be added in the slots of his posse. Every boss has 2 potential posses: a thematic one (which usually provides some bonuses) and a basic one. The deadly 7 thematic posse, while containing some really strong characters, has very limited customizability (you can only select from the 7 named characters). This means that the 2 robot hounds can't be used. For the basic posse, you need hand units which the attack dogs count as, so if you really like attack dogs you can incorporate them that way. The last way to improve your army is by adding additional posses. You can have as many posses fielded at once as you like (bosses are expensive point-wise though so you probably won't be able to use too many) and so you can use an additional posse that can make use of the attack dogs. Honestly though, the deadly 7 already takes up a large number of points so you have a rather standard sized army right out of the box and don't need to worry about buying any new models at the moment. If you have the deadly 7 plus Rules & Gubbin combo set ignore this paragraph. You can buy a Rules & Gubbin set, but the printed rules are already outdated and both the AP deck and Action deck are available online if you want to print them yourself. The only things missing are 10sided dice, the AOE template, and a ruler. If you do want the official Gubbin set (which is nice and I do recommend getting if you like the game) it is usually a better deal to buy it attached to a second posse or via the Red Oak starter set. You can buy both decks for £12, the rules and gubbin set for £20, the red oak starter set (highly recommended) for £35, or a separate posse & rules/gubbins for £50. The red oak comes with everything in the gubbin set plus a second boss and a couple other outlaw units (including gun dogs, attack dogs, and motorcycles) which is a great way to add to your current posse for larger battles. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. We are always happy to see new people getting into the same hobby as us.
  6. Err just a slight correction, gunfighter does not remove the -2 penalty to revolver fan so you need a 6+ to hit (unless they are in cover in which case it is a 7+). Even with cover that is still an average of 8 hits.
  7. Power in this game is usually based on how strong their gun is and how tough their grit (and defensive rules) are rather than how good their other numeric stats are. The stats help, but guns are more important Stonewall's posse is quite strong but stonewall himself is ineffectual as heck. He has inspirational and rebel yell so you want to keep him in the back to cheerlead, but none of his weapons have decent range so he just sits there twiddling his thumbs. Even if he gets in range to hit someone he has low ROA, PRC, and Aim/fight stats. Marcus has some similar issues, but the fact that he has a PRC 4 weapon MORE than makes up for it. Belle is another weak offensive unit. ROA 1 PRC 2 is just disappointing. 18" range is nice but without deadeye you can only really shoot at whoever is closest (thanks to target priority). The dixie snipers are a nice addition, but their offense is a function of how many models are left, so the more of them that die, the weaker they become. Shroud is not nearly as strong defensively as you would hope it would be, but deadeye is great because you can actually choose how to direct their firepower. Rebel yell can make your hand unit have limit 3 which is nice if you have extra fortune make use of it but often you will not have the AP to spend to actually reach limit 3. Lastly there is Tobias. Tobias is a really good unit. Teamwork means that you can trigger 2 faces back to back to hopefully finish off someone before they have a chance to activate (and remove disordered), lethal ROA 2 PRC3 weapon means he has the firepower to back it up, and he has ok stats to fall back on. Sic 'Em gets stronger the more dogs you have. Bring a couple gun dogs with gattling guns and you will see how effective it can be. Best of all, Sic 'Em gives the dogs teamwork so you can activate a face near tobias, which activates tobias, which then activates the dogs all before they have a chance to react. As for the other units in the posse they are all above average: Jefford (like the opponent's Jake) can not move and fire his gattling gun in the same round because it is heavy (he does have the pistol for when he moves, but it is short range), but once he gets some high ground and starts unloading ROA 4, PRC2 with 15" range will go to work. Ignore his murderous rule! You don't want people getting within engaged range of him. The terminator has unstoppable which means it can move and fire in the same round and has a great offense though he is pretty slow so it will take awhile for him to get there. Grit 7 and durable means he has a good defense but the lack of mettle means 1 bad roll will end him. If you keep him in cover he should hold out pretty well. The K9s are surprisingly useful. With rapid they charge 10" and get 2 attacks then you can spend 2 AP and get another 2 attacks per dog. With Sic 'Em all 4 attacks will be focused and a total aim of 7 means an 80% chance of hitting each time (also cover does not apply to melee). If their target tries to run you get back stab on them which means even more hits and the engaged modifier means a -4 to anyone trying to shoot your dogs while they are in combat (plus nat1s hit their ally instead of the dog). One of the strongest options with them is to throw a smoke bomb at the opponent's boss (which automatically disorders them) and then have your dogs charge them the next chance they get. The dogs will be shrouded which means more rerolls which means more nat 1s which means even more hits on their boss (assuming the dogs don't kill them outright). The only problems is getting someone with a smoke bomb close enough and the dogs will be disordered so you only have action limit 1. As you play the gunslinger league and add more units check out Ben Hamilton (mid range ROA2 unit, but decent), Slayn (stone cold killer will give you a ton of AP if you fire on hands units), The wraith (currently being reprinted, but maybe you can find one online or in store?) and Jake from the wayward 8. Once you can swap out your boss that might be a good idea as well. One last thing to note: warcraddle said on this forum that the attack K9s are meant to count as confederate because otherwise this posse doesn't work (K9s were the hands unit) but as of now it is not printed on their stat card. I do not know what the legal situation is for tournaments at the moment and what the situation is for gun dogs. Either way they can be added with Sic 'Em (on either tobias or ben).
  8. Hmm ok, a lot of topics to cover, but I appreciate that you are using examples. It definitely helps the discussion and helps me see where you are coming from. Firstly I agree, the windigo is not a game breaking unit. It has bloodthirsty and frenzy on a ROA 1 melee weapon (why???) and only a 10" range on it's gun. It does well up close so it should excel in small enclosed areas..oh wait, it is XL sized. That being said, between unstoppable, ROA3 gattling gun, and torrent it is decent at destroying grouped units and quick 6 is not too unreasonable. It is not fantastic but honestly it isn't too bad. The heavy buggy a bit of a trade off. With moving target but without durable means it is more vulnerable than the windigo but the massive amount of firepower it brings to the table helps make up for it. It doesn't have the DPS of 2 bikes (maybe with blast against grouped units) but it is pretty close. On the other hand, I love bikes. Seriously before brutal got nerfed bikes were absolutely unstoppable and even now they are some of the best firepower/point value you can find . 15", PRC 2, ROA 4, brutal linked weapons on a 75pt model which also has moving target? Sign me up any day. Usually if you want to kill something, sending a fleet of bikes is a very good way of doing it. That being said, vs a Legendary Nickolai (shielded but outside cover and within 12") if you focus every aiming action and each set of bikes takes 2 firing actions you need an average of 22 bikes to fully kill him in 1 turn. Is it possible for him to roll 4 1s in a row? absolutely. Is it likely? no. Conversely you only need an average of 2.5 bikes to fully kill an uncovered Wendigo and if the Elk even thinks about stepping out of cover he will just kind of fall over and die despite the tough rule (the buggy is around 2 bikes). The original purpose of this thread was to draw attention to how absurdly unbalanced high grit + tough was. I realize one solution is to just nerf all the top tier tough grit units (and yes i would include your previous examples of judgement and King scarab in that because they require an average of 5.5 bikes in this idealistic situation in order to die) while also removing the grit boosting action cards but I thought stopping tough from rerolling 1s was a more elegant solution. Ok so you mentioned tough is their last line of defense and that most units with tough do not have other defenses. I would argue that tough + durable is the equivalent of or better than most other defenses. Because any total roll of 10 or higher is considered a success, a modifier of 4 is the 50/50 mark. Since most stats are higher than 4 (with cover partially countering most PRCs) success is the most likely outcome and thus things that let us reroll checks will often be better than things that make opponents reroll checks. Thus I would argue that rerolling grit is better than making them reroll aim checks (like shroud, moving target, or smoke bombs). Mettle vs tough is odd because disordered vs stunned are very different debuffs. Disorder effects your offensive/maneuverability while stunned only effects your defense (unless you are on lookout). If we are talking pure survivability than yes the debuff mettle inflicts on a failed grit check is weaker than a failure on tough. The last defense to look at is quick and the dead (QTD). This one is odd because timing actually matters (you want to use it after failing with mettle) and it completely bypasses ROA. Because there are a lot of variables I will make it it's own paragraph: Lets bring back the bikes as an offensive benchmark: bikes focused have a 88% chance to hit within 12" due to link and shoot 4 times with brutal so we can ball park it at an average of 9 hits every 2 firing actions (it is 9.04 but I think I will just round it off). A grit 7, quick 6 guy with mettle/QTD outside of cover has a 60% chance per hit of making his grit check. Odds of failing 1 grit check or less per action and surviving is 40.5% and so when you factor in odds of QTD triggering vs the 2nd action your total odds of surviving 1 bike taking 2 combat actions is about 28%. This is a lot better than the mere 7% odds of surviving if you just have mettle. That being said, you can reroll non-1 failed grit and quick checks with fortune chips. Assuming unlimited fortune chips and mettle your odds of surviving 1 action is 65% and surviving both actions by using QTD with fortune is 54%. With the current tough rules your odds of surviving 2 rounds of firing is also 54%. If we take away rerolling 1s, the odds of surviving with only tough become 30% (about on par with a fortuneless mettle/QTD). As noted above though, most tough units are also durable (except elks. those are useless). A tough and durable unit in the above example has a 82% chance of surviving the round if it can reroll 1s and a 54% chance of surviving if it can't. So a 7grit tough durable model with the rule change we suggest has the same odds of surviving 2 firing actions from a focused bike that a 7grit 6quick model with unlimited fortune (usually 2-3ish) does while with the current rules it is roughly one and a half times as survivable. **note: I did not include the grit loss from stunned because adding conditional modifiers to the probability calculations makes the math sooooo much worse. Feel free to lower the % numbers for tough a bit. That being said, cover has a higher impact on tough units than on non-tough units so maybe it all balances out?
  9. Hahaha it is funny seeing this thread being necro-ed (or carpathogened in this case) since warcraddle did a survey on facebook and came to the conclusion that tough needed to be changed. The rule change is still in the works but I am eager to see what they modify. @dzikkithe closer to 50% grit a unit has, the less they are effected by the lack of rerolls. As noted above, for a grit 8 unit there is a difference of 9% between being able or unable to reroll (the difference between 1% and 10% is HUGE). For grit 5 (such as the heavy buggy you mentioned being hit by a -2weapon) there is a 6% difference (22% and 16% is less noticeable). Whether or not the unit has durable has a much bigger impact on middle grit units than the crit failure rule. Yes, if the unit is shot at enough times this 6% difference will add up, but that is true of any grit modifying rule. With both moving target and tough the buggy is far more survivable than a VAST majority of face units. I don't see that as cause to "throw away" the unit. You say that tough is their "last line of defense" but how is that not the case for mettle as well? Perhaps there is an example you have of a unit without tough and around the 180 point cost that can survive a barrage nearly as well as the buggy can even with the reroll rule?
  10. Wow this is really cool and there are some great ideas in here. You made a really well balanced and intuitive system. Do you mind some constructive criticisms on a couple parts though? Treacherous terrain: The fact that you called out tinman as not working against it makes me believe that sure footed still counters it? If so it is probably better to call that out explicitly. Indirect: you both call out indirect as colliding with any wall it hits when scattering but also as being unusable. An option that I was thinking is letting indirect turn corners. So a person can only target someone with indirect if there are tunnels (and open doors) that connect them and distance from shooter to target is measured following the tunnels. So if you have a 12" grenade launcher, you could fire it 6" straight, and then turn 90deg and go 6" to the left to hit a target but if it was 7" left then even though indirect could normally hit it, in the tunnels it can't . I feel like Itchy Trigger finger and Oppressive Blackness should be optional rules. I understand trying to make close work guns stronger in close quarters, but the descriptor is designed to permit the guns to be used in ways other guns can't rather than boosting them while they are close. I guess I don't see why being in a tunnel makes close work weapons work better than they normally work outside of tunnels. If highlighting the strength of close work is important, why not impose a -1 or -2 aim check on all non template or close work weapons (that way shotguns which are also close quarter guns can still shine). As for Oppressive blackness I feel like it might weaken hand units too much. Every rule about this game mode penalizes grouped units: narrow firing lanes hinder large groups of units because not all the units can fire (and if they can, other models will act as cover for the target), template and blast weapons are far stronger (which is anti group units), and now if 2 models die then you have a chance to lose everything. I agree that tunnel fighting is far scarier and thus increasing yeller checks, but while not increase the minimum threshold to when there are 2 or less units. That doubles the number of yeller checks you have to make but doesn't completely kill 8 models if you roll low after losing 2. Frayed wiring: I feel like machines/constructs should be more susceptible. Perhaps double the range the charge can bounce both to and from machines/constructs and increase the piercing?
  11. In the Absolute power posse alone you need 3 hexaliths (the third man, Garratt, and John Hunter) so we really need a way to buy them separately (or in a pack of hexaliths).
  12. Ultravanillasmurf is right: going On Lookout lets you make a Give 'em Hell reaction any time you are the initial target of a combat option. All Veteran Instincts does is retroactively put the unit on lookout so you can then take your Give 'em Hell reaction. Once you use Give 'em Hell you lose On Lookout which is why you might want to make a mind check to try and save the condition for later. The description for give 'em hell is on page 30 of the online rulebook. You can use AP to go On Lookout so no fortune chips are necessary. A couple things to note: 1) it effects units not models, so if a group of hands is On Lookout all of them could make a shot. 2) It triggers regardless of whether or not you can fire back. If the guy On Lookout has a 10" range and he gets sniped from 20" away, he still tries to fire back and loses On Lookout but his shot automatically fails because of range. This is also true if someone targets you with an indirect grenade from the other side of a building; you still try and fire back at them. This is a major reason why they have the mind check option. 3) Initial target is a keyword that refers to the model that ends up being fired at, not the model the opponent originally tries to target. For instance, if you have a guy on lookout and they target someone within 3", you can redirect the "Initial Target" to the unit on lookout with Taking One For The Team and make a Give 'Em Hell reaction (but only if you are already On Lookout. you can't Veteran's Instinct and Take One For The Team). Conversely, if they target someone else with a Torrent weapon and the template overlaps the model On Lookout, that model is not the Initial Target and thus can't react. 4) Being disordered makes you lose the On Lookout condition, while having the Hazard condition prevents you from making Give 'Em Hell reactions. So basically either condition stops you from Giving 'Em Hell and also prevents you from going On Lookout during your following turn (though you can Veteran's Instincts after you lose the condition).
  13. 1) I am going to second what ultravanillasmurf said: Make your own terrain. Terrain is important to the gameplay and balance, but the rules don't call for any specific sized terrain. Instead all the rules judge terrain by height relative to model base size (so if a wall is more than 1 base size high, the unit can't see over it, ect). As such, throw whatever you have available on the table and have at it. For instance, Tupperware is great for buildings because you can actually see the units inside it but it also has a flat roof so units can climb the building. 2) There is certainly some replay value to just the Red Oak set. Having both fast bikes, melee units, faces with mettle, and diverse bosses makes for a fair amount of tactical options. On the other hand, to balance the points the outlaws should get both gun dogs, but that leaves the lawman side feeling a bit small. It is better to also get a set of the rangers and a set of the raiders (the lawman and outlaw hand units) which can then act as proxies for faces and other units letting you build custom armies that are more balanced (all the character stat cards are free online). Each set will cost you about $20 for 10 models which is a pretty decent deal and add a ton of replay value to the game. 3) For my fortune chips I am just using some poker chips from an old poker set. Honestly though it is just a physical counting system so any small objects, spin down dice, or pen and paper can work. Bonus points if you use an abacus.
  14. Yep, Ultravanillasmurf is right. All bosses have 2 potential posse cards: a default one (which is usually the same across all bosses in a faction) and a theme specific one which grants some benefit but usually requires more specific characters/units to fill and is more thematic. You have to fill the posse sequentially (slots 1 through 6 in order) but the posse does not have to be filled before adding in new posses. So for instance, you could have Wyatt and a face unit in one posse and then add another boss to your army and start a second posse. http://www.wildwestexodus.com/content/71-lawmen-stat-cards In the upper right, there is a link that says "download posses & armory v1.07" which will list all the posses available to the lawman faction (and a list of weapons your hands units can be outfitted with). Wyatt unfortunately has one of the most specific theme posses in the lawman faction. If you like hand units, Bill Hickok has a theme posse with a lot of slots for rangers (the advanced lawman hands unit) and Kingsley Stern's posse has a lot of slots open for deputy units (the cheaper hand unit).
  15. Yes, your assumptions are correct. If you go standard lawman posse you can go Doc gun dog 1 gun dog 2 attack k9 1 attack k9 2 interceptor And then as you get more models combine slots (so combine the 2 attack k9s into one unit and add a unit of lawman hands, combine the 2 gun dogs and add another face, ect.). For the tombstone posse you need Doc, Virgil Earp, and Warren Earp because those are the only non-boss tombstones, and then you can fill it out with other options. It is a lot harder to fill out the tombstone posse, but in exchange you have the ONLY posse in the game that can have 2 bosses and the teamwork trait which , if played correctly, can allow you to activate your ENTIRE posse before they get a turn. If you like the game enough to heavily invest in it, that is a really strong option, but if you still want to play a bit and test the waters, going for a pack of rangers and minute men is a good plan. As for outlaws, Jesse is a good posse that has one of the most open ended posse lists letting you pick and choose units at will from largest faction. Additionally prodigious is a pretty decent bonus rule (an additional +1 on any focused action). On the other hand, bandits are a lot weaker than rangers (rangers have 2 more grit than bandits when they use tinman and have deadeye while bandits get +1 pierce and can spread out more). It is a pretty even decision between outlaws and lawmen: Wyatt and hand units are stronger on the lawman side, but outlaws have a lot more Face options and a more open ended posse list. One last note: buying model bikes are expensive, so if you really like the idea of either jesse or wyatt on a motorcycle it is a good idea to do the conversion now. You can use magnets to swap out the top half of the models on the bikes so you are not locked into 1 option, but you really have to do it now before fully assembling anything.
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