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The Warcradle Team

Overread

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Everything posted by Overread

  1. Exactly - build the games mechanics separate from the Lore, allow the game to function on its own with independent factions and then the lore can do what it wants. Heck many players have their own stories for their races and can write their own for allied battles or for why their own forces are attacking their own etc... A system with fewer set alliances and structures is more free to chop, change and advance its own lore and to do what players and developers want than one that is tied to specific alliances that are built into the games balance structure between major factions. Because then you can't easily change those alliances later and you can so very easily end up with new factions appearing with no bolstering allies or one faction can wind up with way more allies than is healthy.
  2. Age of Sigmar is an interesting example because the way that GW presents it and the way it actually is are not identical. The Dark Elves comparison is a good one, though its firstly important to understand that there are no more Dark Elves, but subfactions made up from Aelves who were once Dark Elf models. Of those that still retain an element of the old lore (Daughters of Khaine) they are within order because they are allied to Sigmar and Stormcast, but they very much do their own thing. It's like going into WW2 with the Russians as your allies. You know they are monsters, that they've their own evils and that come the end they will turn on you; but right now at the height of war you'd rather they were on your side fighting a united enemy than having them as another enemy or, at worst, joining the other side. This doesn't come across as well in GW's casual display of the factions through their website as such, but it is how they are functioning once you dig into the lore even a little. The other aspect with allies is how they work on the table top. Personally I'm more a fan of the idea that each game faction is its own unique army and that, much like how Warmachine does it, each army stands 100% alone on the battlefield. There are rules for taking allies and players can take two battlegroups if they want for whatever reason but there's no built in alliance structure that lets you take allies from other factions for regular matches. This allows factions to retain their own visual and lore identity and it makes balance easier because each army works on its own within the core of the balance. It means they can have weak and strong points and not have to worry about an allied faction "fixing" those missing parts (which tends to result in soup or allied armies dominating in the competitive and serious casual markets - whilst "pure" armies (which are what the company markets them as and what many want) suffer). It also means that the lore is free to chop and change. Directorate can be allied with Sorylians and then turn on them in a big campaign story pack and then ally with Reltholza. The lore change, the world and setting advance and NOTHING affects the actual balance of the tabletop game because each army is still fighting on its own. It's purely the political and lore scene which has evolved. To my mind it makes for a stronger lore element and more freedom with the lore. When GW tried this with 40k allies according to lore it got silly. Tyranids wound up with no one whilst Marines have a wealth of choices (to show the two most extreme). It makes the tabletop more messy and, honestly, its not needed. Gamers cna easily play two battle teams on one side if they want and the developer can encourage it through campaign and scenario packs without making it the default/mainstay game mode.
  3. There's a sweet spot between dealing damage and destroying things and dealing damage and crippling. Personally I find that games where you expect to put 50-100 models down per side work better with weaker chaff that dies fairly fast but not too fast; and a few big heavier things that might take a lot of punishment before going down. Meanwhile smaller games where there might only be 10 models a side or 20 you really want more of a tarpit experience than an outright killzone. That way you're not losing huge portions of your fleet every turn and it makes the crippled status have more of an impact. Plus for warships its more realistic that one-shot kill is rare whilst the rest of the time you're fighting with cripped/damaged ships that are still afloat even if half of the ship has been blasted off the top. Turn templates are always a bit of contention, but I'd agree, a smaller ship should have a much smaller turn circle than a larger one; at the very least two templates would be ideal for the sea vessels. It gives you room to have nippier ships that can weave in and out; whilst giving bigger ships more of a feeling of size and power.
  4. *Polishes a hammer* Well actually a ticket for a hammer as I don't have a hammer....... Though honestly it wouldn't shock me if they re-write a lot of the background to Firestorm. It might sound bad, but honestly SG didn't put a huge amount down on paper in vast detail and as WC has hired their own writers it might flow better giving them more freedom to be creative and open with the setting than trying to tie them to another person creation that they don't quite have all the understanding of - esp the little details that are slipped in here and there. Though I can appreciate that many have fond memories and I'd hope that they stick to the core themes and alliances and structure that was established first. That said I'd expect ot see the core factions appear but for there to be a lot longer before we see more minor factions appearing in great number. SG added a lot of minor factions, but often never fleshed them out. My feeling is that WC might add things slower but flesh them out all the more when they do come out.
  5. Are there any considerations regarding the management and finance side of this? Mostly in terms of bulk print ordering. I'm aware most places use printers in China and order a big shipment for cheaper prices and then ship them out to distributors and customers from their warehouse. If you're going to do print on demand does this mean that WC will have their own card printing or that you'll do smaller order runs from China with a view to possibly having higher prices/less profit on the cards? That might be viable if the game launches or at least has an app by the time the first revisions come around. From what Im' aware its the costs and logistics of cards that made PP start to abandon them in boxes (esp since it left old cards which needed instant replacing in the distribution network). If anything the card era is slightly giving way to the fast update era in wargaming and that almost nudges things back to codex style books being more viable and then an FAQ/update sheet being printed every so often. It at least cuts down a lot on material costs.
  6. @hyde1352 I only meant in so far as we remain talking about the current rules rather than reminiscing too much about the old ones, so you're totally fine
  7. The main issue with home printing is that 99.9% of home printing people have cheap printers and use cheap paper. Ergo the quality is rather low and that's before you get to having to cut them out and perhaps sticking them on a bit of card etc.... Ergo you end up with a formal game tool that is low in quality. That's bad because that is advertising your game to other customers. Most would rather take a neatly professionally printed card with slower stat updates than cheap ones that, eh ok they work for the die-hard fan but won't work for the vast majority of fans nor will they draw in more players. Now you can use a combo. An online app that updates automatically; cards in a card pack released each year - sure some will complain about having to buy stats again, but at the same time it means that you've got a professional product that looks good and is updated and in your gamers hands. The issue then is unit counts because not everyone is going to build the same fleet. Now the old Helix structure of how Planetfall was sold was a very neat way that could have helped because it basically gave you a known maximum limit - one core and two helix of each kind attached to that core. So you could make a single core and double pack of each helix for stat cards and sell that as a bundle and know that most of the players will have just that. With more freeform army purchasing it gets a bit trickier to sell cards. Most of the time its not viable to sell one-of cards to the international game market; and selling packs can get tricky if people have specific armies that are not represented by the cards in the pack.
  8. Stat Cards were all the rage a few years ago when Warmachine hit the market. They were neat and still are in that they let you easily track unit stats by putting the cards you need on the table rather than having an army list or a rule book that you flip back and forth in. Esp if the design of the game means that we don't see dedicated army books for each faction (or if we do its a few years off at best before there are enough models and lore to justify such publications). The thing is that any printed media can be updated by changes in the balance of the game. Warmachine found this out and has mostly given up wth printed cards because when they revised their rule structure to one that updated stats a lot faster, it was not economical to keep producing and selling cards; not economical to put cards in boxes which then went out of date and thus left them either having retailers selling old stock or having to have them repackaged (which is a significant cost and hassle to organise with 3rd parties). I think stat cards might work well for the launch of the game as it might be a year or two before we'd see big updates in the game balance and stats (assuming the beta testing phase goes well in that regard). So cards would work at launch and if WC keeps to a slower 0 even if just annual - update of rules then they could sell printed update packs for players to purchase direct. Of course app. based game aids help a lot in speeding up delivery of new updated stats; however they are not universally accepted and come with their own downsides (having to own a device to read it - having to charge it pre-game and/or having charging ports at the site - having to deal with overheating, crashes, software slowdown etc...
  9. I think its good to put the past of Spartan games down now and focus on what is before us with the Beta - it might be worth spreading this out into a couple of threads as clearly there are several issues already being raised that are worth separate detailed discussion: The identity in terms of variety of weapons as well as combat flavour for factions is worth its own thread Close combat also appears to be touching a sore spot here so I'd encourage those interested to put together another thread for that. With separate threads we can go into more detail tahn general comments.
  10. As long as people remain polite and leave out personal insults/bad language and such there will be no locking of threads. Critique is the whole point of a beta, both good points and the bad points. The idea being to work on the good and improve the bad so improve the overall product. So nope no plans to lock anything - just keep the language polite and remember its perfectly fine to dislike something; but don't just shout about it - explain clearly WHY you dislike it. The why is important as it gives an idea of where things have gone wrong and what can be done to fix them not just what is wrong. Note this comment isn't focused on you, just on the general statement of "in before lock"
  11. Texas I'm certainly not going to force you to like the changes, but it would be great if you could go into detail about what changes and shifts you don't like and why. How things compare to the old rules and how you think the new ones could be adapted to find a good spot between the new and the old. As a beta this is an ideal phase and moment in time to air such thoughts and it could result in changes that you'd really like and enjoy and that which would benefit the whole game and all the players At this stage your feedback is not only really important ,but its also a lot easier to make changes because the rules are not released yet; they are not set in stone in a formal printed edition; they are at a very malleable and adjustable stage.
  12. Crippled submarines going deep just sounds all kinds of wrong - if a submarine is crippled then it should be surfacing not going deep - going deep would add pressure and crack the hull open all the faster. I can understand it from a gameplay perspective in that its trying to dodge attacks and going deep is what submarines can do for that; but a crippled submarine should be surfacing and prevented from going deep if its doing anything. Aircraft going higher is a bit more logical - if it can still fly then going higher can let it avoid further damage whilst pulling it out of the main area of combat.
  13. Aye I think so - who knows they might do some metal casting too; however I think its a fine line between focusing effort on classics and pushing their own designs forward. I think once htey start rolling out their own range we might see classics fall to the side or be a bit like how GW does it - a little every now and then. Thus letting them focus on their new range and push that forward into the lime light and rebuild the grand great games!
  14. Well the good news is that now if WC delay or tarry with the relaunch of Firestorm we can at least set the cats on them
  15. At present they are recasting classics from Dystopian Wars - though its basically anything that is all resin rather than resin and metal. So chances are firestorm might come off fairly well as quite a lot of their range had been shifted to full resin. And agreed, I did worry when the news came out that Spartan was going to be torn up with, at best, different companies buying different bits of it and that it could even end up dead in the water with the equipment selling and the IP and moulds left to be destroyed, dumped or just forever stored in some insurance company warehouse. That WC moved in and bought pretty much everything was, from our point of view, great news.
  16. Welcome to the site Spacecat - look forward to seeing your models and armies! Stuart WAIT we have carpets? Where? Since when? I've not seen any
  17. Ahh missed that this was in the firestorm section. At present Firestorm is anticipated some time next year and there's no fixed news on it -a few hints of pictures in their podcasts but nothing solid from them as yet. Remember WC didn't buyout or take over Spartan, they bought it up when it went into administration. As a result everything was shut down and shipped out to them - some machinery and such went missing whilst things like the moulds were just lumped on pallets. So they've spent quite a long time working out which castings go for which models and the like. It wasn't, sadly, a clean affair and its why WC has had to basically spend a year setting up their own factory and rebuilding things. Though they are taking this moment to stamp their own identity on the models and redesign many and revamp them - giving the line a fresh overhaul and bringing it all up to modern standards as well as giving it a face lift. They have said that they've hired a writer and are looking to develop the lore for Firestorm much more so than Spartan did which is a great thing! Spartan always had some neat lore but it was oftne kind of in the background or locked in the designers heads more than on clear paper in books/manuals.
  18. The beasts of war photos and video from the last Gencon which shows the Prussians! https://www.beastsofwar.com/liveblogentry/step-into-warcradles-saloon-for-wild-west-exodus-and-dystopian-wars-comment-to-win/#snav
  19. When is still "This year" we have no fixed date on the release itself. They have thus far shown some renderings and master casts from events they've attended. The Bretonian and Prussian core ships have been shown off and a few other bits and such here and there in their QA sessions. They are also selling some classics as they come through them in the moulds they've got - mostly sticking to whatever is made fully in resin rather than resin metal or metal models.
  20. Expect to see Classics remain on Dystopian Wars up until they release the new stuff for them; at which point a shift to FA would be ideal; giving WC something to tide the FA fanbase over until they get some stuff out. What interested me most was seeing at the Gencon the massive spaceships on sale now - SG never got their leviathans onto the tables; but it seems that both Starwars Armada (which honestly released a VAST BEAST of a Super Star Destroyer) and Dropfleet commander are both now getting bigger ships onto the market. Gives good hope that we might see similar vast ships appear one day from WC!
  21. You know having had a look at the original models again in photos I don't think these are as big a departure as we might consider. The funnels are still the same, the hull is mostly similar; the biggest difference is the shift toward trains in the middle and the loss of tesla broadsides and replacing them with what look like small turrets. Mechanically I think this might well change the faction or make it so that its core is similar to others in having decent ranged offence. We might even see the rules shift around to favour range more over close combat. Another thing is that the trains seems to come direct from the giant ice carrier. The big tesla weapons on that were on train tracks so who knows this might even been the direction SG could have taken them (SG always had way more designs than they could make and a very active creative section so could be these are even old or revised designs tweaked or influenced by). STill looking forward to the day that we hear dates and such! Getting on to August now so hopefully only a month or two before we start to hear big news (assuming they release Q4)
  22. To my eye they've gone more traditional steam punk in style - not that the old weren't good but they were certainly more smart and almost modern looking with their turrets (even futuristic). It's certainly a big change even through to their train system (I really hope we see WC release terrain packs like Spartan did - I'd love a proper themed Prussian base with railroads and such - plus the video did mention attacking coastal installations! )
  23. Loved to see all the models - the 20-20 model and its alternate transformed mode look really great and I love the Bravestar nod it gives! The Prussians are also very interesting. I recalled the train system from the previews shown earlier and its translated to models really well! I love the idea of the trains being in the ship and it gives a sense of scale to the models as well when the steam trains are small models just sticking out the back of it. I'm also going to say that seeing the twin turrets and the design of them is giving me a big flashback to the glory days of PC gaming with games like Red Alert an the heavy tank from there; as well as all those cartoons from the 80-90s. Really loving the designwork. Interesting to note that there don't seem to be any electric weapons on these Prussian ships. Does this mean that their electric warfare has changed? Originally they were much more close and board you type faction; these ships seem much more bombardment and long to mid range. Or have they shifted their mighty tesla into a new breed of ships that we've yet to see!
  24. Where's the photos from Gencon - we must have some crazed fans there to ambush the Warcradle team for questions, pestering and to see any preview models or ideas!
  25. Polaris I love that - massive fantastic looking fleet! Makes me dream of seeing FA back in the world and getting a chance to have it advance from squad to fleet scale battles with that many models (given time and enough hours and mad enough players to field that many warships)
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