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Frans

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Frans last won the day on February 20 2018

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  1. Yep, pages and pages of off-topic posts...
  2. More like infinite different ways it can move. And the X-wing route represents a sort of board game movement, with the templates replacing the game board grid.
  3. That would, in FA 2.0, be about 800 points, so Patrol Fleet level...
  4. The only thing your evidence proves is that players can be sufficiently addicted to a company/setting that they will put up with anything. As is the aforementioned company is actually losing customers to companies producing games tailored towards tournament play. That’s why they have recently started releasing their own games tailored towards tournament play. They could have tailored their existing games towards tournament play instead, of course, but they didn’t, for good reasons. Those reasons being that you don’t want to risk alienating your main customer base in order to cater for the wishes of a minority within that customer base. And that’s why it would be much better to tailor FA 3.0 towards players who like big games taking all day, and tailor Taskforce 2.0 towards players who like tournaments. Regarding rules complexity etc.; simpler rules don’t necessarily result in faster gameplay, and the number of dice rolls needed doesn’t necessarily increase with rules complexity. Point is that, regardless of complexity, rules can be written to make you work, or rules can be written to do the work for you. In my opinion good rules belong to the latter category. The same goes for dice rolls; a more detailed/realistic combat resolution doesn’t necessarily involve rolling more dice more often. Most detailed/realistic “single die” combat resolution systems utilizing anything from a D20 to a D100 look complex and slow down gameplay at first, but as rules proficiency increases they speed up remarkably, leaving any “bucket full of D6” system behind in the dust. The main reasons those games the “big bad” represents are fast playing have nothing to do with rules detail and complexity, with these games that's purely the result of extremely simple combat resolution and, even more important, movement systems. As an example, moving a Squad of SM, with the only restraint being you can’t move them further than six inches, is going to take a whole lot less time than moving the same number of space ships complying to all sorts of precise movement restrictions. And regarding the “How big of a fleet are YOU looking to have on the table for a tournament of FSA?” question; you’re assuming I play in tournaments, which I don’t, I don’t have any interest in tournaments whatsoever, so the answer would be “none”. You’re right that an ability to field bigger fleets will be more attractive to most players. Still the majority of popular new tournament games don’t involve many models. That’s because they aim at a very specific target group, which doesn’t represent the majority of war-gamers. That majority of war-gamers isn’t going to be interested in a space combat game either btw, because they don’t like fiddly time consuming movement systems, and you can’t have a decent space combat game without a fiddly time consuming movement system. Like tournament games, space combat games represent a niche within the war-gaming hobby too. And you can’t cater for both these niches without ending up with a compromise that isn’t going to please anyone. That’s why I think FA would be better served with something tailored towards big games taking all day, which is what the space combat niche likes, and also have a much simplified “Taskforce” spin off to specifically cater for the tournament niche.
  5. Where I come from it is seen as more productive to talk about things before they become definitive and real than afterwards.
  6. And how many points/ships per side will fit inside this "average" game?
  7. I don’t remember saying that “the longest running wargame run regularly in tournaments” is a game well suited for tournaments, in my opinion the only thing that particular game is good at is selling goods at inflated prices to a thoroughly addicted customer base. Your view on what determines game length isn’t correct, there’s a lot more involved than the two factors you see as determining. Chess, for instance, is a game with very simple rules, and a turn requires but the simple move of a single playing piece, yet the game requires so much time to play they had to come up with something called a chess clock to speed things up a bit. The two most important factors determining length of play in a decent space combat game are the amount of dice (and dice rolls) required for combat resolution AND the complexity of the movement system. The actual number of ships on the table only multiplies the result of the combination of these two factors. And the problem is that you can’t have combat resolution and movement systems as simplistic as those in “the longest running wargame run regularly in tournaments” and still end up with a decent space combat game. As a matter of fact, any references to “Warhammer” type games where it comes to space combat games, especially regarding things like combat resolution and movement, are totally useless. Regarding FA tournament game size; as far as I know most tournaments are currently held at the 400~600 points level, and require two hours plus to finish at that level. What tournament players seem to want for 3.0, however, is a substantial increase in the amount of points, and two hours playing time at the outside. Now I can understand why they want to be able to have tournaments at an increased points level, because the fact that FA is playable with ~500 point fleets doesn’t mean you’re getting the full FA experience at that points level, far from that. But having both substantially more ships on the table AND decreasing playing time won’t be possible without reducing the simulation level of the game to a level at which you’re basically playing Warhammer with little space ship models. Needless to say, that’s not the type of game I, and most other players, bought into, and certainly not something I’m looking forward too either.
  8. Yeah, but simple streamlining isn’t going to result in the substantially shorter games with substantially bigger fleets a certain player group seems to desire for 3.0 And if shorter games with bigger fleets becomes the / an official design goal for 3.0 the result will be something entirely different than the current FA (and something a large part of the current customer base is probably not going to like).
  9. This isn’t about what has been in the past, this is about the two main wishes for FA 3.0 I see emerging on this forum; bigger fleets AND shorter playtimes. Now you might be able to achieve one of those with a diet, but achieving both will certainly require a bit more than that.
  10. Well, I was talking about war-games, I thought that was pretty obvious. And the fact that a tournament game ALSO needs clear rules etc. etc. doesn’t change the fact that it will need to be playable within a certain amount of time. How much time that is will depend on the actual type of tournament; in the popular miniatures war-gaming tournaments format this will be two hours tops. Now there exist many things you can do within a two hour time frame, but completing a detailed fleet level space combat miniatures game, like Firestorm Armada, isn’t one of them. You can streamline the rules as long as you like, but you’ll never be able to turn FA into a 90~120 minute game without picking its bones clean. The point I’m making is that you can’t turn FA into something “tournament suitable” without changing the type of game it has always been entirely, and with that come risks regarding the current customer base. As an example; from my own current four player FA group only one player might actually be interested in such a game, but he’s already heavily involved with X-wing and Armada, so probably won’t go for a third “tournament” space combat game. And looking back at BFG times, the majority of players I used to know that were involved with that weren’t “tournament” players either. So, as far as I can see, going the “tournament” way with FA could easily alienate three quarters plus of the games current customer base, yours truly included.
  11. Those are all games representing forms of combat that can handle very fast and simple movement systems without losing their “simulation” feel. Space combat is something entirely different, because with space combat, without precise movement, you’ll lose the “simulation” feel. And that’s why you can’t have a decent space combat game with a table full of ships that’s tournament suitable.
  12. Sure sounds like a tournament suitable game... That's because Firestorm Armada wasn't made for tournaments. Anything designed to be finished within two hours tops. What you are then likely to see is what the internet shows you… And what the Internet is going to show you is that tournament play is the most visible part of war-gaming, because those involved in it are over-represented on the internet. Re tailoring a game like Firestorm Armada to suit a different player-group runs the very real risk of alienating the current player-group. And that current player group might well be considerably larger than this new target-group.
  13. What it means is that most X-wing players are StarWars addicts who would buy my sweaty socks if I told them Obi-Wan once wore them (long long ago etc. etc.)
  14. You can certainly scale a tournament game up to something requiring an entire day to finish, but doing so will just turn a small simple game into a big simple game, it won’t get you something complex and detailed like the current Firestorm Armada. So you can’t have both, no matter what way you go. Spartan actually did come up with the right (and only) solution for making FA tournament suitable, they created a second space combat game specifically designed for tournament play. What you desire isn’t Firestorm Armada 3.0, it is Firestorm Taskforce 2.0 Which is fine by me, but not at the cost of Firestorm Armada please. Regarding the business part; I think it is rather dangerous to assume that what the average forum member wants equals what the average customer wants, and that the average tournament player is also interested in space combat games that don’t float on a very fat long long ago IP. In addition to that tournament games have, from a business point of view, two disadvantages; the first one being that most of them don’t require that many miniatures to play, and the second one being that they are highly susceptible to trends. Especially the latter one isn’t desirable for a small company operating in a niche of a niche market.
  15. Movements of units, and most other things, are by definition much more complex and time consuming in a table top miniatures war-game than they are in a board-game, simply because of the immense increase in possible actions that comes with leaving the constraints inherent to a gaming board behind. That’s why table top miniatures war-games, unless sized down and dumbed down to the bare minimum, aren’t really suitable for tournament play. That’s why the currently most popular space combat game for tournaments is essentially a card game pretending to be a board-game disguised as a miniatures game. And it primarily floats on the fattest IP in history by the way. I honestly don’t understand this desire to dumb and size down all table top miniatures war-games just because otherwise you can’t play Saturday afternoon tournaments with them. I have nothing against tournaments, but they aren’t, and have never been, the be all and end all of table top miniatures war-gaming. In Firestorm Armada movement eats up a lot of the available time, which is actually just fine because movement is the most important factor in a tactical space combat game anyway. And because movement is so important it should offer both freedom of choice and precision, which unfortunately doesn’t combine well with quick and easy. This doesn’t mean I have nothing critical to say about how Firestorm Armada’s movement mechanics work, to the contrary; the rules invite congestion, the hardware sucks, and the end result feels more like sailing boats than flying space ships. And much the same goes for the way in which the game handles space combat. Spartan came up with some mechanics to balance units of varying size and firepower, and those mechanics are fundamentally flawed. What I’m talking about here is this whole cumbersome exploding dice and linked fire mechanism that only stays afloat thanks to an artificial cap on squadron sizes, which severely hampers freedom of choice where it comes to buying miniatures and fielding fleets. There exist many more things in Firestorm Armada that would benefit greatly from some improving, changing the way SRS functions into something that actually feels like small manned spacecraft instead of some short range missile weapons system for instance, but the two mentioned above, movement and combat resolution, are at the core of any war-game, and as such determine success or failure. So I’m very interested in an all new and improved Firestorm Armada, but in my opinion “improved” doesn’t equal “tournament friendly”. I happen to like Firestorm Armada’s current complexity level, and I also like a game that doesn’t feel like it ended before it really started, as most of those 90-minute marvels do. Firestorm Armada has always been a fleet level space combat game for war-gamers who like big battles taking all day, and most players I’m familiar with that play it played BFG before, another fleet level space combat game for war-gamers who like big battles taking all day. So why now turn it into yet another contender for the competitor rich, and thus risky, tournament scene? Spartan Games didn’t sink because they lacked Firestorm Armada customers, they sank because they lacked continuity, never finished what they started, and seldom delivered on promises made.
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